Sorry I haven't posted in so long all two of you who read this little bit of internet realty. I've been distracted arguing with a group of feminists. I've already put in way more thought and typing on this subject than I should have so I'll keep this post quick. Here's the link. I post under the name P-stone. If you really want you can jump in and argue but I think you'll be able to gather from the comments that that's not a particularly productive thing to do.
End Communication
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
Either I'm a chauvinist or these feminists are stupid (guess what I think)
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12 comments:
Let's avoid the blanket labelling of all feminists, please. Just as all men are pretty diverse, feminists are as well.
RE: You're absolutely correct, my apologies. I've edited the title to more accurately reflect my sentiments (those of you coming late to the game I just put "these" in front of feminists.) The primary tenets of feminism, that women are equal to men and should be treated accordingly are ones that I hold to be self evident. Thanks for calling me on that one. I take it you followed me back here from TG's blog, I recall seeing you over there. Welcome to my little corner of the internet, please do stay a while and keep calling me on my shit, that's why I set this up.
Sure, any time. Besides, as sort of the public enemy number...oh...3 or so to a lot of feminist bloggers, my calling of shit skills are legendary...
That thread's gotten a bit long so I'll come over here and chat.
I've been reading your comment exchange and while for the most part you seem to be a genuinely frustrated guy (and who -wouldn't- be frustrated with the dating scene?). However, this line caught my eye:
"I treat women as equals, I think of them as equals and so do all the guys I know."
The thing is, you -think- you treat women like equals. But just a few lines ago you say,
"If you go to a bar dressed like a slut, don’t get offended when you’re treated like a slut."
Now you might say, "It's just a word," but keep in mind that you're using a word that has been used to justify all kinds of horrors perpetrated against women. You're using a word whose very roots are based in the extraodinarily not-equal treatment of men's and women's sexuality, in which male promiscuity is tolerated or even praised and female promiscuity (or even the perception thereof) is villified and reviled.
Being "treated like a slut" can mean anything from "deserving" to have some random stranger grope your breasts to "deserving" to be raped. I very much doubt that this is what you mean when you say that phrase, but you cannot pretend that these rationalisations have not been made to countless hundreds of other women by other men.
For me, the simple fact that you can apply the term "slut" to a class of women so unproblematically is an indication that you are probably not as equality-minded as you think you are. Reading through your arguments affirms this; you may or may not have noticed, but in many of your "solutions" you are asking that the -woman- change her behaviour, without necessarily asking men to alter theirs similarly (i.e. "if you dress like a slut, expect to be treated like one"). This is one of the most visible instances of male privilege (and yes, it does exist, and no, you're not bad for having it -- I'd recommend reading tekanji's Check My What? post about privilege if you're not sure what I mean by this term). Why should a woman have to adjust her behaviour to avoid attracting negative attention? Why can't men just be less negative instead? It's called "blaming the victim," although the way you're doing it here is far ... less offensive than other ways I've seen it used, to be certain.
Moving on:
"If you constantly look at the world through a “I’m a poor oppressed woman” you’ll find examples of oppression everywhere. Try just looking through the “men and women are equal” lens for a change, it’s the one I try and use. Now I’ll admit that there are still some pockets of misogyny in society but it’s not an overarching conspiracy, it’s just a few sad, ignorant men clinging to the past. I’ve done nothing to be lumped in with them and I take a great deal of offence that you would think I do."
The thing is, we wouldn't be able to see those things if they weren't already there. You're right in saying that people will see what they want to see -- you yourself think men and women are equal in every social way that matters, but I say that we are far from being equal simply because society still values men and maleness over women and femaleness, even if it doesn't do so intentionally.
And while you personally may have "done nothing" to be lumped in with asshole misogynists, that does not mean that you are exempt from your privilege as a male in this society. You do not have to do anything to "activate" privilege; it's a passive trait, something society confers upon you with or without your consent (which is why simply -having- privilege doesn't make you a bad person).
Unfortunately, there's no way to "prove" that you or I are "right," because we're dealing with subjective experiences here. Instead, I would suggest continuing to speak with other bloggers (and real life friends!) about issues such as sexism, and trying to keep an open mind such that you can actually -listen- to what women are saying about their own experiences instead of just assuming that they're "playing the victim" ("poor oppressed me").
First, though, you might want to run over and check out feminism 101, a blog dedicated to introductory-level feminism -- it might help you get a grasp of some basic feminist concepts before you wade into debate/dialogue territory with feminists already versed in the vocab. :)
Hi baby221, welcome. That thread sure is long eh? I got tired of it too. You’re welcome to come over here and chat but I’m a bit fatigued in regard to this debate so you’ll have to pardon me if I don’t respond right away or at length. But by the same token you did come here and comment, and it’s not like I get a lot of that, especially not from people who I don’t know in real life (I don’t know you in real life do I?)
Anyway, first off like many others you’ve taken issue with my use of the term “slut”. Now in previous comments I tried to clear that up but let me try again. I don’t use the term slut only on women, that seems to be a real sticking point. There’re two words for people who like to go out and have no strings attached sex and the only operator that seems to dictate which one is to be used is the gender of the participator. Now men, generally who participate in this behavior are referred to as “players”. I think that’s a stupid term, I don’t like it and so I don’t use it on men or women, it tends to imply a certain acceptance or even admiration for what they do and while I don’t particularly have a problem with promiscuity, as long as everyone involved consents etc. I hardly think it’s something to glorify. Now the term generally applied to women who engage in this form of behavior is a “slut” and certainly this comes with some negative connotations, however I think the main reason it’s objected to is because it’s applied pretty much exclusively to women. Given the associations it brings up I can completely understand why. Where we differ is in finding a solution to the problem. Either we can declare that the word is harmful and should never be applied to women regardless of their behavior, or we could say the word is accurate; the harmful part is only applying it to women, and start applying it to men. Now maybe it’s not my place to try and play a role in reclaiming such a word, I can certainly see how you could make that case. But I really feel compelled to clarify that I use that word to characterize the behavior of both men and women and I’m not alone. If you still have a problem with the word even if it were applied equally to men and women then we might have something to discuss but if your primary concern is just with its sole attribution to women then we’re in agreement and can probably safely move on.
Next you mentioned what some people could assume someone treated like a slut “deserved”. I’ll thank you for expressing doubt that I think women could possibly deserve to be raped but since you brought it up let me clarify exactly what I meant. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, makes initial judgments about others based on their appearance. In and of itself this is not an issue, appearance is the first indicator we can get about what a person is about so it makes sense to go on that until better evidence presents itself. Now, on to how this would apply in a bar scene. In a bar, most women who are there and especially those in revealing clothing are looking for male attention. Everything about where they are and the way they are dressed signals this. Bars are places for singles to mingle and potentially hook up and revealing clothing generally signals willingness for male attention of some sort or another. Combined these two create a strong signal that such a woman is looking to be approached by men. Now of course men who are looking to approach women are going to pick up on these signals, they are going to go to bars and look for the ladies in revealing clothing because these two signals together strongly suggest this is exactly what the ladies involved are after. Neither of these two groups is doing anything wrong, nor do they necessarily have to change their behavior. We could say that there are more efficient or better ways to go about things that both groups would benefit from but we’ll leave that aside for now.
The women who I suggested a change of behavior to were the ones who go to these areas and dress in this manner and are then offended when they are approached. This would be a good time to point out that the only judgment I’d say a male in this situation could make would be that the woman is potentially available to male approach. If he is told otherwise, about him personally or men in general then his only option is to desist, immediately. Women in these situations are giving off the signals that they are inviting an introduction, nothing more. I cannot stress this enough, all the signals I’ve discussed should only give a man the mental green light to go and try his best pickup line, or say hello, or offer to buy the girl a drink. It doesn’t entitle him to keep bugging her after she says no and it certainly doesn’t condone any uninvited physical contact of ANY sort. Back to the subject at hand, the only reason that women were the only ones I suggested a change of behavior for was because men don’t generally complain about how they go to libraries or supermarkets and get shot down by women there when they offer to buy them a drink. Obviously wrong place wrong time. If men were doing this I’d suggest they change their behavior, but by and large they don’t. What you do have is women putting on halter tops and going to night clubs and then becoming upset when a man offers to buy them a drink. Again, wrong time, wrong place.
I’ve actually already read the first link you recommended to me, as a general rule I agree with what it says but thank you for bringing it to my attention. I’ve read a couple articles that discussed my privilege and I was very interested. One list I read I’ll admit I do enjoy a lot of the benefits listed. However they are almost invariably ones I would say women in our country (I’m referring to Canada by that remark but it applies to the developed world in general) enjoy. More importantly almost none of them struck me so much as privileges that I should renounce but rights that everyone should enjoy. So yeah, I guess I have privilege, but I think you do too and I think anyone who doesn’t should have it, which makes me wonder if privilege is the right word at all.
I can assure you that I’ve devoted a great deal of time, thought and discussion to this issue since I began posting on thinking girls blog. It’s not an issue I take lightly, especially in light of the fact that my opinions apparently cause some to consider me an oppressor. I’m sure I’ll continue to do so and despite all the frustration this has caused me I’m grateful that it’s afforded me the opportunity to consider the issue from other perspectives. That said, while I’m more open minded and sensitive to this issue than I was coming in I still stand by my comments and I frankly don’t believe that we have a patriarchal conspiracy here in the developed world. You were kind enough to provide me some links, here’s a few I read today from some female bloggers that you might find pertinent.
http://apostate.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/our-bodies-our-choices/
http://apostate.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/feminists-and-women-listen-up/
http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2007/03/i-will-have-none.html
Thanks for discussing, I’d love to hear more from you on this or other posts.
A few things I stumbled upon that are somewhat related
http://bamber.blogspot.com/2007/03/lot-of-guys-wonder-why-girls-go-out.html
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/01/cads_vs_dads_ii.html
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2003/10/why_do_women_li.html
You don't have the first clue, dickwad.
Clue:
*Not everything is about YOU*
*Shut mouth*
*READ*
Oh and you spelled chauvinist wrong.
Anonymous - spelling has been fixed, thank you for your helpful comment
Women are not feminists. A woman is content and confident enough with herself to be what she was born to be. A feminist either has mental problems garnered from media and fashion, or simply makes poor choices in men, but either way they feel the world belongs to women in general, feminists in specific. Usually around age 50, alone and past child-bearing age, they figure out the purpose of family and loving people instead of using them. For them, it is too late, and they must try to then eek out a later life with people that did not know them when they were activists. I know thousands of feminists and dozens of women. The bottom line? Women are not men and can never have when men have. Feminist thinking never ceases to amuse me.
Anonymous 2:
Feminism is simply the belief or ideology that women are inherently equal in value and ability to men. It's an ideal that I, and I imagine the majority of people agree with, at least in general. Radical feminists on the other hand are for the most part nuts, as are most radicals.
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